Noachic Flood Debate

 

Damien Mackey writes:

Thanks, Johnny, for the update .... .

My Flood model is intermediate between the Global (e.g. Ken Ham's version, even with dinosaurs aboard the Ark) and Local (in the minimal sense - e.g. just Mesopotamia).

I believe that the riverine world of Adam and Eve, and of Noah, stretching from Mesopotamia approximately to Ethiopia (the four rivers of Genesis 2), was Saint Peter's "the world that then was" (2 Peter 3:6).

That is what was flooded.

So my Flood model is Local, but vast.

The Global (Creationist) model, a Flood that erases the entire antediluvian world, cannot account for:

(i) the testimony of Jesus Christ that the Jerusalem-ites (why them?) were to be held accountable for the sins of persecuting the righteous even from the time of Abel (well before the Flood); nor

(ii) the traditions that have Jerusalem, 'the centre of the world' (Ezekiel 38:12), as the place where man both fell and was redeemed; with

(iii) Golgotha, 'the place of the Skull', being the very place where Adam was buried; nor can it account for

(iv) this geological data that Jerusalem was once under the ocean. "Diggings" (December 1994, Vol. 10, No. 12), "Why Hezekiah's Tunnel Has the Bends" (p.5): A geologist may have the answer. Now an Israeli geologist, Dan Gill, has done some research on the matter and has come up with some very plausible explanations. Dan identifies two types of rock in the tunnel area -- limestone and dolomite. The former is fairly soft and porous, the latter comparatiively hard. It is rather interesting that this limestone consists of about 30% fragments of fossil shells and some coral, which means that Jerusalem, which is now about 700 metres above sea level, must have been beneath the ocean at some time in the past . ...

(v) nor the Cain-ite archaeology in Mesopotamia (e.g. Eridu = Irad; Uruk = Unuki/Enoch), interrupted by the Flood, and then resuming afterwards; nor

(vi) how Ashurbanipal could claim to have read writings before the Flood, if all prior civilisation had been totally erased.

….

 

Johnny replies:

Hello Damien

Please allow me to respond to your points:

Damien(i): the testimony of Jesus Christ that the Jerusalem-ites (why them?) were to be held accountable for the sins of persecuting the righteous even from the time of Abel (well before the Flood); nor ...

Johnny: Yes, the Jews hardly realize the terrible responsibility involved in rejecting Christ. From the time when the first innocent blood was shed, when righteous Abel fell by the hand of Cain, the same history had been repeated, with increasing guilt. - In every age prophets had lifted up their voices against the sins of kings, rulers, and people, speaking the words which God gave them, and obeying His will at the peril of their lives. But they would not listen. - From generation to generation there had been heaping up a terrible punishment for the rejecters of light and truth. This guilt, of acting against knowledge they had of what constitutes sin, the enemies of Christ were now drawing down upon their own heads. The sin of the priests and rulers was greater than that of any preceding generation. By their rejection of the Saviour, they were making themselves responsible for the blood of all the righteous men slain from Abel to Christ. They were about to fill to overflowing their cup of iniquity. And soon it was to be poured upon their heads in retributive justice. Of this, Jesus warned them:

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." Mt. 23:35; Gen. 4:8.

Not only were the Jews guilty, but in the end fallen Babylon (having the mind of Cain) is also guilty of "all" that was done on earth - the slaying of God's people (of whom Abel is a symbol) upon the earth, Rev. 18:24, for they scorned, and still do, these and many other truths, the whole Bible actually, as their long history proofs. That is why the Bible teaches, "Come out of Babylon," for it is fallen, is fallen that great city, because who made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of God" Rev. 14:8; (which is going on today)., and so all those stuck in that system must come out to be saved, for when Christ comes the Second time (as taught throughout the Bible), He does not come to die for us again, but to save us. He and God Father and all the holy angels come then in their great glory and power, and only those whose every sin has been confessed, repented of and prayed for to have them forgiven and their soul temple cleansed, will not be consumed by the brightness of His coming. So, we know that there is nothing good to be found in Babylon anymore.

Yes, it is true because it is the spirit, the way of (evil) thinking that is meant, for sin started before the Flood of course. God keeps records of the life or every human being. The Bible teaches there is a `Book of Life' and of `Remembrance'. - We ought to know that we are accountable for our sins, as well as for those sins which result of what we caused to happen. Each of our own sins can have long lasting effects, even over generations (Adam's sin) for which we are responsible, unless we confessed and repented and so can be forgiven and be saved, but the effects go on nevertheless, and those people involved must do the same, confess and repent, if they want to be saved. In that sense Adam was responsible, and his sons for their sins.

(ii) the traditions that have Jerusalem, 'the centre of the world' (Ezekiel 38:12), as the place where man both fell and was redeemed; with ...

Johnny: "To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places [that are now] inhabited, and upon the people [that are] gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land." Ezek. 38:12.

All I want to say about Gog and Magog is this, in Ezekiel 38 Persia (Iran) is revealed as an ally of Gog and Magog who, - perhaps their religion has a spirit of persecution which is reviving today -, in the latter days, attack God's dear people (Rev. 13), and they will perish on "the mountains of Israel." Eze. 38:18-23.

(iii) Golgotha, 'the place of the Skull', being the very place where Adam was buried; nor can it account for ...

Johnny: Well, traditions is one thing, the word of God another. There is no scripture that says that Adam was buried at Golgatha, in fact, the world wide Flood of Noah destroyed all pre-Flood landmarks, so that we cannot point to any place, here was Eden or there was the place where Noah built the ark. The pre-Flood world vanished and the fossil bearing rocks all over the world, and even in the highest mountains, testify to that fact. So, no, the Flood in the days of Noah was not a limited, local event, it engulfed the whole world, for our Lord God in Heaven means what he says,

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. . . . And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." Gen. 6:6,7.

In the beginning our earth was a perfectly balanced planet, even down to the center of the earth and including its nuclear materials burning inside. Sin caused this balanced planet to become unbalanced and "the fountains of the deep" shot jets of water high into the atmosphere at the start of the Flood. That is telling us that the inside of the earth caused water to get so hot, because of the nuclear imbalance now, that such jets of water broke through the surface and destroyed, together with the Flood (rain) waters all life and all features on earth - for our earth may be viewed as a nuclear reactor in the center of it, underneath our feet.

(iv) this geological data that Jerusalem was once under the ocean. "Diggings" (December 1994, Vol. 10, No. 12), "Why Hezekiah's Tunnel Has the Bends" (p.5): A geologist may have the answer. Now an Israeli geologist, Dan Gill, has done some research on the matter and has come up with some very plausible explanations. Dan identifies two types of rock in the tunnel area -- limestone and dolomite. The former is fairly soft and porous, the latter comparatively hard. It is rather interesting that this limestone consists of about 30% fragments of fossil shells and some coral, which means that Jerusalem, which is now about 700 meters above sea level, must have been beneath the ocean at some time in the past . ...

Johnny: Right, Palestine like all the world was completely covered by water during the Flood. That is the reason why sea fossil shells are all over the world, even on top of the peaks of the Himalayan mountains. I myself found numerous rocks like that on 2517 foot high Mission Peak, along highway 680 at the edge of Milpitas, CA. [See one rock I found laying in the grass and photographed, which someone had put there illegally, with imbedded sea shells at `this site. Like all around the world, limestone and dolomite is found in many, many places. Of more interest is that there are found tropical plants at Antarctica. Because before the Flood, there were no icy poles and oceans.

(v) nor the Cain-ite archaeology in Mesopotamia (e.g. Eridu = Irad; Uruk = Unuki/Enoch), interrupted by the Flood, and then resuming afterwards; nor

Johnny: These were just local floods interrupting a site, long after Noah's Flood, for in pre-Flood days there were no oceans like today. Uruk is located at the delta of the Euphrates River near where it spills into the Persian Gulf.

(vi) how Ashurbanipal could claim to have read writings before the Flood, if all prior civilization had been totally erased.

Johnny: Does Ashurbanipal, who lived not close to the Flood, say he read something from before the World wide Flood, or before heavy rains, before his time, affected his realm? - That can be interpreted numerous ways. We ought not to construe out of such mentioning of floods, that it means Noah's Flood, which was world wide and no one saw it, except Noah.

….

 

Damien Mackey replies

Hi, again, Johnny

Your (i) is a very good sermon and I would agree with a large part of it – e.g. your basic sentiments about the tension down through the ages between the good, led by true prophets, and the wicked seed of Cain, for whom the Flood came.

Now, I know that you accept the toledȏt theory of P. J. Wiseman, that the true structure of the Book of Genesis comprises the series of family histories (toledȏt) of the Patriarchs from Adam to Jacob (I refer to your site: http://www.specialtyinterests.net/Toledoth.html). And that you accept that Moses was the editor/compiler of this Divinely-inspired historical series – that he up-dated, for example, parts of the history of Abram (Abraham), written (or owned) by his sons Ishmael and Isaac (Abraham himself did not actually sign off on a Genesis toledȏt). I quote from your site examples of geographical updates by the compiler, who we believe to have been Moses himself (as according to tradition):

The Compiler

The compiler [320] would have summarized the histories of his forefathers, making textual notes for the sake of his contemporaries. For instance, the names of some of the locations in Canaan had changed since the time of Abraham and so the compiler had to indicate the new name of an ancient site. There are some examples in Genesis 14 of the compiler's identifying for his contemporaries some of the ancient place names of Abraham's time. We have:

"Bela (which is Zoar)", in verses 2 and 8;
"Vale of Siddim (which is the Salt Sea)", verse 3;
"En-mishpat (which is Kadesh)", in verse 7;
"Hobah (which is to the left of Damascus)", in 15;
"Valley of Shaveh (which is the King's Dale)", in verse 17. …

[End of quote]

I am sure that you would also believe that Sacred Scripture interprets itself, meaning that we must be consistent in applying an established rule, rather than all of a sudden abandoning it when it does not fit our own preconceived ideas or agendas. In other words, it is God, rather than we, who has the right measure of His own Book, and hence we ought to be humble and avoid presumption. If God’s measure does not mesh with ours, then we must be prepared to drop our preciously-held view.

Now as it turns out, the very pattern that has been established above (“The Compiler”), which we both accept as legitimate, is found again in Genesis 2. But there you, and Creationists in general, would reject it. This is not consistent, and is due I believe to a preconception, which is a misconception, regarding the effects of the Noachic Flood.

Here is my explanation of how the geographical indicators of Genesis 2 and 14 follow the exact same pattern (http://genesisflood.blog.com/2009/05/05/noahs-flood-was-not-global/):

Four Rivers of Genesis Common to Adam’s Day and to Moses’ Day

We saw that the four rivers referred to in the antediluvian Adamic toledôt are actually named by the postdiluvian Moses as real rivers, running alongside (or around) real geographical locations. Moreover, Moses uses the very same 3^rd person masculine singular Hebrew pronoun hu (comprising the Hebrew letters, he waw aleph), meaning ‘he’ or ‘himself’ (itself), in every one of the four cases,thereby directly connecting Adam’s four rivers with four known rivers of Moses’time.

Now, thishu is again the exact same Hebrew pronoun that editor Moses would use in his geographical modification of Abra[ha]m’s history, where, in that famous case of Genesis 14:3 he advises his people that the site that was in Abram’s day “the Valley of Siddim” had now become the Dead Sea. Thus Moses: “Valley of Siddim (that is, the Dead Sea)”; the Heb. pronoun hu here being translated quite appropriately into English as, “that is”. But even though the Bible seems to be interpreting itself for us here, I have found that‘Creationists’, whilst willingly accepting the view that Moses was, in the case of Genesis 14:3, pointing to the very same geographical region that was intended in the Abra[ha]mic history (though now with considerable topographical alteration), will strenuously deny any geographical connection whatsoever in Genesis 2 between the pre-Flood hydrography and that later connected there by editor Moses with the pronoun hu.

Now the Answers In Genesis [AIG] (some of whose editorial staff at least I know to be keen on the Wiseman toledôt theory in regard to Mosaïc editing of the Genesis texts) co-authors (Ham et. al.) also have argued against any sort of geographical connection before and after the Genesis Flood, in their section: “Answers to objections to a global Flood” (op. cit., p. 144, “Objection 2: The post-Flood geography is the same as the pre-Flood”).Here is how these co-authors tackle the tricky (in their context) matter of the Tigris and Euphrates:

Someone may ask, ‘Then why do we have a Tigris and Euphrates today?’ Answer: the same reason there is a Liverpool and Newcastle in Australia; and London, Oxford and Cambridge in North America, although they were originally place names in England. Features in the post-Flood world were given names familiar to those which survived the Flood.

This, I find though, to be a typically modern ‘surface’ reading of an ancient text, without coming to grips in any way with the realities of the ancient document; with, for instance (a) the fact that commentators consider the elaboration of the four rivers to be an editorial addition to the original text, (b) coupled with the use of the Hebrew pronoun hu, specifically linking the pre- and post-Flood rivers, as it indeed links geographical locations between the Abra[ha]mic history and the era of Moses.

Nor can the AIG co-authors so easily dismiss the two other rivers, Pishon and Gihon, by simply stating (ibid.): “The Pishon is not mentioned post-Flood and Gihon is used of the locality of a spring near Jerusalem in the times of Kings David, Solomon and Hezekiah”. For I referred to Sirach’s testimony, in “The Location of Paradise”, that the Pishon and Gihon were, with the Tigris and Euphrates, still (in the C2nd BC) abundant, active rivers. So again I would emphasise the point (and this is pitched mostly at those who tend to operate according to the principle, sola scriptura), that to hold to a view of no geographical link whatsoever between the pre- and post- Flood worlds is to be un-biblical. ….

[End of quote]

Yes, to shatter the link is un-biblical!

The Book of Genesis (chapter 2) has described for us a world that was circumscribed by four rivers, all of these emanating from the central Paradise stream. Basically this is the region of the Fertile Crescent, from Mesopotamia to Ethiopia.

Palestine was approximately central to this.

A mere four chapters later (6, through to 9), this world (Peter’s “world that then was”) is destroyed by the Flood. It was apparently “the world” that humankind then inhabited.

Only one family survived.

From this reasonable, Bible-based view, it makes perfect sense:

(a) how the site that was later named “Jerusalem”, the original Eden, a sacred site from the very beginning, could be accused of blood shed even back to Abel

The prophet Jeremiah, likewise, appears to intimate that this ancient site (= Jerusalem) was a sacred place from the very beginning (Jeremiah 17:12):“A glorious throne, exalted from the beginning, is the place of our sanctuary”.‘From the beginning’ (מראשון), here, has the same Hebrew root (ראש) as used for ‘beginning’ in Genesis 1:1: “In the beginning …” (http://genesisflood.blog.com/2014/01/22/jerusalem-before-and-after-the-flood/).

(b) how Ashurbanipal (and indeed Wiseman as well) could read/view pre-Flood tablets;

(c) that the biblical and traditional view of Jerusalem as the “centre” can be maintained;

(d) with Golgotha, 'the place of the Skull', being the very place where Adam was buried;

(e) where man fell, so was mankind redeemed.

(f) It enables for the archaeology that has (i) Cain-ite cities, then (ii) the Flood, then (iii) re-building of those same cities. The Uruk I dynasty that followed the Flood appears to belong to Cush and his son Nimrod (Enmerkar), as David Rohl has well argued.

(g) the science telling us that Jerusalem (the site) was once under the ocean can be upheld.

Regarding (b) above, Ashurbanipal, this very learned and practical king of Assyria, was assuredly aware that Mesopotamia was prone to floodings. Consider the elaborate canal systems there. He well knew the difference between these local inundations and the Flood.

Nor can (g) above, apparently a geological fact, be accounted for in the Creationist scheme of things, because (and you put into words their view), “… the world wide Flood of Noah destroyed all pre-Flood landmarks”. Well, if you say that, shouldn’t that have included your “peaks of the Himalayan mountains … 2517 foot high Mission Peak, along highway 680 at the edge of Milpitas, CA”, etc.?

On the other hand, if one accepts what I believe to be the proper biblical scenario, then the six miles of sediment below the Genesis riverine system, as discussed at length by Professor Carol A. Hill (http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Carol%202.pdf), can have nothing to do with the biblical Flood. Contrary to Creationists, this sediment was already lying there when the Flood arrived.

Regarding (f) above (http://www.towerofbabel.com/sections/tome/babelinbiblia/):

A Sumerian epic entitled Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta is the closest parallel to the Genesis story [of Babel]. It speaks of a golden age when “Man had no rival,” and “the whole universe, the people in unison, to Enlil in one tongue spoke.” But,

Enki. . .the leader of the gods
changed the speech in their mouths
brought contention into it,
into the speech of man that (until then) had been one. …

[End of quote]

The Creationist Flood model is un-biblical, but it is also (as shown above) unscientific – moreover, Noah had to be an absolute superman to have built an Ark that could ride out a global Flood. And I was disappointed, Johnny, that you fell for that three-card trick of that boat-shaped rock formation in Turkey as being the ancient Ark of Noah. That is desperation to verify the Bible! No wonder geologists laugh at Creationists, and with good reason in this case, knowing that what Ark-eologists hail as being the true Ark, is a (to them) well-known and common rock formation (a geosyncline or autochthonous block).

Does not the Bible tell us that the Ark landed on “the mountains” (plural)?

“Ararat” (the name only relatively lately given to that high mountain in Turkey – which has nothing to do with the Bible) surely being the ancient land of Urartu (modern Kurdistan). And that is where the Assyrians come in again. Sennacherib, depicted in Urartu on (Mount) Judi Dagh, apparently had access to what remained of the real Ark, for according to Jewish legend, “A beam of the Ark was found by Sennacherib, and he made an idol of it” (Sanh. 96a).

Book of Revelation

I do not want to get into a major discussion of the Apocalypse here, as our real concern is the Book of Genesis and the Flood. But I would ask: Does the Bible actually talk about, as you say,“… when Christ comes the Second time (as taught throughout the Bible)”?

I, like you, believe that He will come again, but will it actually be His Second Coming?

Did He not solemnly declare, with a guarantee (and that is pretty definitive I should think coming from a Divine Person):

“I can guarantee this truth: Some people who are standing here will not die until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

He could not have put it more bluntly! That“coming” is what the Book of Revelation is all about. The harlot Jerusalem, there called “Babylon” (as Jewish prophets were wont to do), has been found wanting and will now be divorced, stoned and burned (like a harlot woman), and will be replaced with the new and faithful Bride.

A perfect fulfilment of the Mount Olivet Prophecy!

To force an ancient prophecy to fit a modern era (though you are quite right to point out the likenesses – for we again today seem to be making the same fatal mistakes as did that “generation”), and to transpose a modern global scenario on to a local biblical one, whether it be Genesis (Flood), or Revelation - as Creationists do - can make a mockery of Scripture and its prophecies, and its prophets, such as Jesus and Paul, who critics today laugh at for, presumably (critics’ ignorance), making predictions about the end that did not come to pass. But these inspired prophets, most notably Jesus Christ himself, were precise and accurate, and hence Jerusalem went under, its Temple left with ‘not a stone upon a stone’, within that very generation.

Reply [Johnny's] finished February 25, 2014

 

Hello Damien;

 

God gave man free choice in choosing Him or not. That `free choice' He will never take away from us, yet it has happened frequently that man tries to force his views on his fellows. That need not be. When we disagree, we may do so, because of that free choice. However, if we choose the world only, instead of God, we must bear the consequences, for God gives only two ultimate choices, for or against Him.

 

[Damien. I basically agree.]

 

Before the Flood those rivers existed, then the earth and all its pre-Flood features was destroyed, and after the Flood the Semitic people, those who had the Toledoth tablets, surveyed the area they lived in, and named rivers by those pre-Flood names, because it made them feel connected with Adam and perhaps Eden. That is just an easily understood human reaction, and has no bearing on actual Pre-Flood Geography for some supposedly still visible in the days of Abraham and Moses.

 

[Damien. No, that is not correct Johnny. While we today cannot know a lot of things about ancient worlds, we can be grateful to Moses for telling us quite clearly, in his gloss to Genesis 2:14: “The name of the third river is Tigris; it is the one that flows toward the east of Ashur”. Just as he had obligingly told us, in relation to Abraham’s history, that the Valley of Siddim had become the Dead Sea. You can ignore that fact as blatantly as you like, to preserve your own Flood model, but that makes nonsense of this Genesis verse. The Tigris river of Adam’s day, Noah’s day, ran virtually where it still did in Moses’s day, and even still does today.]

 

The river which is called Euphrates today, did not exist before the Flood, neither did any other river. Any such assignments are just human opinions.

 

[Damien. No, not “just human opinions” at all. It is Biblical fact, as according to my previous comment.]

 

The difference is not the geography, but one's worldview.

 

[Damien. Exactly! The Biblical geography is clear. But it has to be denied or contradicted by those who seek to impose their own global Weltanschauung, ‘worldview’, upon it.]

 

The fossils are the record of a worldwide Flood.

 

[Damien. There was no “worldwide Flood”. The Biblical Flood was associated with the vast riverine system of early Genesis, and geologists inform us that it is beneath that same riverine landscape that one finds miles and miles of sediment.]

 

If the millions of years were true, there would be bones sticking out of the ground everywhere.

 

[Damien. I personally do not accept “millions of years”.]

 

The features on earth definitely show marked evidence of a world-wide Flood independent of pronouns and the word of God confirms it.

 

[Damien. These features definitely show evidence of catastrophisms, but a lot of it was glacial gouging, according to geologists, not water. The global Flood model is not only un-Biblical, it is un-scientific, and goes completely against common sense.]

 

It seems to me that the Bible can also be only surface read. When its says,

"the flood came, and destroyed them all" Luke 17:27, "all", that means all people, all around on the pre-Flood land mass in our world at that time. It is not good to minimize the word of God to please a view which makes God look as if He is not all powerful and today's interpreters are. Not so.

 

[Damien. Yes, but that “all” may then have inhabited only that riverine region. I believe that only one family survived the Noachic Flood – Noah’s.]

 

Here is a parallel what happens when God carries out judgments,

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." Rev. 12:7,8.

Just like the places once inhabited by Satan (the dragon) and his fallen angels were not found anymore in heaven, and just like on earth, the places of the many dead by wars, are not found anymore, so also the pre-Flood world.

 

[Damien. That’s your opinion, but not Moses’s opinion which I would follow, indicating connectivity between the pre- and post-Flood worlds.]

 

When we read Jer. 17:12, the glorious sanctuary of God which was once in Jerusalem, is a symbol for God's sanctuary in heaven. It is always there where God is, as Moses' experience at the burning bush illustrates.

The word of God always sees things in a spiritual way, not geographical where Adam was buried, there must be where Christ was crucified. That is besides the point. The Bible was given by God, to understand spiritual lessons more so than physical, for by faith we are saved. When occasional a physical location can be ascertained, that just may help us to build up our faith, but we ought not to use it to war against other assertions.

 

[Damien. Don’t forget the Incarnation, the Word becoming flesh and dwelling in a humble stable in lowly Bethlehem. God made man as both a spiritual and a physical being. I know that you yourself are a keen about the recovery of biblical sites and about an archaeology that harmonises with the Bible, hence your site The California Institute for Ancient Studies. But with comments like the above, you remind me instead of a certain type of pious Jews who would not dream of even considering to look for a physical Mount Sinai, so exalted and semi-mythical do they regard it. Yahweh obviously had no such qualms, descending upon a real earthly mountain, Sinai, which I believe to be Har Karkom in the Paran desert.]

 

Well, I think the ark in Turkey is the best that was ever find - sizewise - Josephus says it was visited as such by people around his time.

 

[Damien. It’s not an Ark, Johnny, it’s a rock!]

 

The beams of the arch are all decayed, not doubt accelerated because of the post-Flood temperatures in the ground. Noah was 380 years old when he began to build the ark. I believe these people were stronger and more skilled than most are today. We have become devolved since that time, not evolved. We are lesser than they were.

 

[Damien. Not what Jesus says about John the Baptist and those who can be even greater than the Baptist was.]

 

Your example of Matth 16:28, was probably best fulfilled at the transfiguration of Christ in Matth. 17, when his kingdom of glory was shown to Peter, John and James, as they saw the early fruits of the resurrection, Moses and Elijah, with Jesus.

 

[Damien. No, that would not make sense as the Transfiguration occurred too soon after Jesus’s comment – that comment being only about “some”, not (virtually) “all” of those standing there at the time.]

 

It is not wise to fight against the true meaning of the word of God who does carry out His threatenings to completeness. Gen. 7:11, 12.

 

[Damien. No, it is not wise at all. So, let the Scriptures interpret themselves for us. We just make a mess of it when we try to force our own foolish views upon God’s Book.]

 

The rain at that time was not a shower; It means to say that torrents and jet streams of water came down and blew through the surface for 40 days.

When Jesus comes again the second time in His Power, that of the Father and all the holy Angels, we must be ready, for if we are not, we will be destroyed for sin cannot exist in the presence of God, for His brightness is a consuming fire. On that day there will no blue sky be visible but only God's angels everywhere.

It may help to study our once perfectly balanced planet, and what sin did when it affected God's universe, and especially our earth. That was an earth shaking event to the very core underneath our feet, more involved than we might think.

Praise the Lord, ought to be our reaction, for He has thoughts of love and salvation for us, if we only accept His sacrifice for our sins and no other.

[Damien. A good thought on which to conclude, Johnny.]

 

Digital Archaeological Atlas

What is the Digital Archaeological Atlas of the Holy Land?

DAAHL's Google Maps interface for Empires
Click the "Empires" link above to open this page.

The Digital Archaeological Atlas of the Holy Land (DAAHL) is an international project that brings together experts in information technology including Geographic Information Systems (GIS) and the archaeology of the Holy Land (modern Israel, Palestine, Jordan, southern Lebanon, Syria and the Sinai Peninsula) to create the first on-line digital atlas of the region held sacred to the three great monotheistic faiths - Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Using the power of spatial information systems such as Google Maps and Google Earth, GIS, the tens of thousands of recorded archaeological sites for the region - from the remote prehistoric periods to the early 20th century - will be entered into a comprehensive database along with site maps, photographs and artifacts. The historical and archaeological content for this project will be developed by a team of over 30 international scholars working in the region, helping to provide the data used to create the Atlas. This website and its content will serve as the prototype "knowledge node" of a more comprehensive Digital Archaeological Atlas Network for the Mediterranean region.

New developments in telecommunications and information technology are revolutionizing the fields of archaeology, history, and the social sciences. The atlas represents a signature project of the Center for the Interdisciplinary Study of Art, Architecture and Archaeology (CISA3) at the University of California, San Diego and the Geo-Archaeological Information Applications (GAIA) Lab at Arizona State University. The atlas project brings together many of these advances based on new discoveries and the latest content concerning one of the most politically complex but meaningful geographic regions in world heritage. The control of time and space allow archaeologists to uncover address the 'big questions' of human history and social evolution. These include answering how and why the major technological revolutions of history occurred and influenced social and historical change in the Middle East. In broad strokes, the control of time and space are essential commodities in the construction of a heritage-based cyberinfrastructure, which come together for scholars and the general public in the DAAHL. New developments in GIS, high-precision radiometric dating methods, and archaeological fieldwork carried out in the Holy Land (Israel, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, southern Syria and the Sinai Peninsula) have helped identify significant "Global Moments" of fundamental social change in this region. The atlas will harvest, analyze and disseminate settlement pattern and new archaeological data for each key period of culture change in the Holy Land, from the Lower Paleolithic over 2 million years ago to the early 20th century when the region came under British control.


This prototype web site is organized around two central themes, a series of case studies, historic maps, and database search functions. The "Empires" theme organizes information that illustrates the march of empires across the Middle East, from the development of the first Egyptian state in about 3000 BCE to the Ottoman Empire in 1918 CE. Here, the DAAHL concentrates on the impact of imperial "ordering templates" upon the lifeways of indigenous peoples in the region, as they are reflected and refracted by imperial and local traditions. The DAAHL website incorporates an interactive Google Maps interface, which can be animated to show the spatial footprints of more than 20 empires. A drop-down list lets the user select any of the empires; a selection automatically loads text in the right side of the page that introduces the empire, and queries the DAAHL database to present the archaeological sites in the database that were contemporary with the chosen empire. (The user must be zoomed in about halfway to see the site points). Each site point can be clicked to open a balloon with its name, and the name can be clicked to open a page in the atlas that contains three groups of information: 1) the listing from the DAAHL database, showing all the filled-in fields from the site table; 2) a listing of all the chapters or case studies in the DAAHL website that discuss the project; 3) a detailed, verbal description of the site, which can be richly embedded with pictures, tables, and static maps.

How can I use the DAAHL Website?

The site now contains a variety of Google Maps interfaces that let you explore the region and the archaeological resources it contains. The link bar under the DAAHL header provides access to the main functions currently available in the website. These include:

The Mediterranean Archaeological Network or MedArchNet is one of the first attempts to create 'Portal Science' for archaeologists and the interested public. Consequently, a major goal of MedArchNet is to make archaeological data from the Mediterranean lands accessible to various communities, including school teachers, tourists and travel agents, university students and professors, researchers, and public policy makers. MedArchNet taps into the fast-growing field of 'portal science' and will serve researchers and explorers as a platform for international collaboration, while also allowing the general public to share in the excitement of archaeology and discovery. This link takes you to the MedArchNet homepage.

Empires presents one set of examples of Global Moments in the Levant. On this page the DAAHL includes an interactive Google Maps interface that presents the rise and fall of empires in the ancient world. The map can be animated to display the empires across time; individual empires can be selected to display summary information, and archaeological sites extant during the empire's time span can be displayed and queried on the map.

Archaeological Periods organize over 17,000 sites in the DAAHL database by more than 60 time periods from the Lower Paleolithic, more than 2 million years ago, to the Late Ottoman period, which ended in 1918. A Google Maps interface lets the user animate site clusters through time, and explore the distribution of archaeological sites in the Levant during any of these periods. Short introductions to the time periods are included as well.

Shishak's Campaign presents information related to the Egyptian Pharoah Sheshonq I (known in the Hebrew Bible as Shishak) and his military expedition into southwestern Asia. His invasion of Judah and Israel is documented on the south wall of the Temple of Amun Ra at Karnak, and described in the Bible (1 Kings 11:40; 14:25; 2 Chronicles 12:2-9). The DAAHL uses the latest "tour" capability in the Google Earth API to track some of the movements of Shishak's army.

Case Studies are specialized, in depth explorations of different subjects in the atlas. Tom Levy's exploration of the Edomite Lowlands during the Iron Age, which is accompanied by an interactive Google Maps display, is a prime example. Other case studies are presented as online Powerpoint or HTML presentations.

About the Atlas displays information about the main research partners who are developing the atlas. The Atlas is an international project that brings together experts in information technology and Levantine archaeology to create the first on-line digital atlas of the region held sacred to the three great monotheistic faiths - Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

PEF Maps are maps produced for the Palestine Exploration Fund by Claude R. Conder of the British Ordanace Survey in the 1870s and 1880s. These classic maps contain more than 10,000 place names, and are an important resource for Late Ottoman period Palestine. The GAIA Lab at Arizona State University converted the map sheets into more than 50,000 tiles in an interactive Google Maps display that can be zoomed and panned to show the maps in the background, with the DAAHL archaeological sites superimposed.

Search Database opens a page in the website where users can query the database by such things as site name, time period, site type, site conditions, etc. Queries are submitted to the DAAHL web server and the results are returned to the user as dynamic kml, which opens on the user's computer in Google Earth. All sites displayed in the result sets are "backlinked" to the DAAHL database, so they can be explored indiviually by following their links. See the video presented below for an example of a search by time period.

The Spatial Search link opens a page with in interactive Google Maps display. The user can draw an irregular region of interest on the map and perform a search for all the sites in the DAAHL database that fall within one kilometer of the search region. Like the database search, results are displayed as points in Google Earth; the user can determine the point display style, and all search results are back-linked to the Atlas.

The Virtual Museum opens a test page in the website with a Google Earth interface centered on the site of Busayra, Jordan. The map displays a 3d scan of a rim sherd above its find spot at the site, and users can rotate the image in three dimensions. This is a test page that illustrates principles that could be used to construct a virtual, online museum, showing sites and scanned artifacts as solid, rotatale objects.

Site Preservation links to a page in the DAAHL website that displays two film clips. The first shows how the Spatial Search is done, and illustrates how this function can be used to help preserve archaeological sites by minimizing the impact of development projects through avoiding sites. The second film clip is a trailer to a movie that discusses the danger to one of Jordan's most significant Early Bronze Age sites posed by expanding gravel quarries.

Contributors to the DAAHL project have come from many countries, universities, and research institutions. All sites and project data that are contributed to the DAAHL are "branded" with the contributor's information and cross-linked to their websites. The DAAHL database safeguards our contributor's information and drives website traffic to their research projects.

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For more, see:

http://daahl.ucsd.edu/DAAHL/

Archbishop Mark Coleridge on new ESV Bible

UPDATE: New Lectionary & ESV:

Some official clarification Given the time we have devoted recently to the proposed new Lectionary based on the English Standard Version (ESV) of the Bible, including a brief comparison of an ESV sample text with other translations, and given the lively and interesting comments it has elicited, I made so bold as to email directly to the Most Reverend Mark Coleridge, the Archbishop of Canberra-Goulburn and Chairman of the International Commission for the Preparation of an English Language Lectionary (ICPEL), seeking some authoritative clarification on some of the questions raised in our discussions. With admirable speed for a busy diocesan bishop, he very kindly sent a concise but richly informative reply which answers the questions I asked him, and also one I failed to ask him! Apart from chopping the head and the tail of the email which were brief and directed to me, I shall quote him in full: … In answer to your questions, the facts are these. The ESV was chosen over the RSV because the ESV, in its 7% modification of the RSV, seeks to incorporate the fruit of more recent biblical scholarship, i.e. since the publication of the RSV. In other words, the RSV is out-of-date. We were looking for a more up-to-date version of the RSV; and when the NRSV proved impossible, we chose the ESV. Unlike the copyright holders of the NRSV, the copyright holders of the ESV have shown themselves quite open to the kind of changes we would need or want to make for Catholic lectionary purposes; and the copyright arrangements for the project are now in place. What will appear in the lectionary will be a modified form of the ESV. This may in time look to the production of a Catholic edition of the ESV, though that is not decided. I know too little of the permission given to the English ordinariate, but I doubt that it will have an effect on the lectionary we are producing. That would depend on the Holy See. It is very hard to say when the ESV lectionary will be ready for publication. We have all but finished work on the first volume (Sundays and Solemnities), and it may be that the first volume will appear before the others. But it depends on how quickly the bishops of the five Conferences get back to us within the process of consultation. Many of them are keen to have a new lectionary as soon as possible, so it may be that we will have the entire new lectionary by 2014… +Mark So the rationale behind the choice of the ESV is made clear. The ESV is a revision of the Revised Standard Version (RSV) that takes into account the latest insights of biblical scholarship and textual criticism, and only 7% of the RSV is actually revised in the process. Moreover, using the NRSV (New RSV) was not a viable option due to the copyright holders not being open to the Church making the necessary modifications to the text for our use. The ESV’s copyright holders are amenable to our need to edit texts for the purposes of the Lectionary, and to bring certain passages into line with Catholic tradition. Answering a question I wished I had asked (but didn’t!), given comments made by Theophrastus in another post here, it is conceivable that a full-blown, standalone Catholic edition of the ESV could be produced, though no decision has been made on that. As suggested yesterday, given the international, large-scale diffusion of the Catholic Lectionary, a Catholic ESV should be a viable proposition, at least economically. This would address the concerns raised over not having a Bible edition that matched the the texts of the Lectionary. Archbishop Coleridge also kindly gave us some sort of ballpark figure for when the Lectionary might be implemented, given the variables of the time needed to revise the texts and for the necessary episcopal consultation process: 2014. This is sooner than I had expected, and is very heartening. Given that these processes often take longer than first envisaged, perhaps 2015 might be a safer bet, but still that is much sooner than I had expected. 2014 would be just wonderful, even if it were only the first volume. The Archbishop’s reply has addressed the major questions and concerns so far raised here, and filled in a few gaps as well. The speed and informativeness of his reply has left me feeling even more encouraged about the proposed new Lectionary. One gets the feeling that ICPEL is getting on with the task without fuss, and with a strong sense of service to the Church. The fact that ICPEL has a relatively low profile rather supports the intuition that its members are more interested in the work than in publicity. May God prosper their work, that it might bear much fruit to God’s glory.

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Taken from: http://hughosb.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/update-new-lectionary-esv-some-official-clarification/

Archaeology Confirms the Bible

Author: Professor Walter J. Veith, PhD

The Bible contains 66 books written over a 1500-year period of time by 44 different authors. The authenticity of its stories and of the people that lived in its history has been authenticated by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1948.

The Cyrus Cylinder Enlarge picture The scrolls date back to 150-170 BC and contain all or parts of the Old Testament books except the book of Esther. Many other discoveries have helped prove many details of the Bible that had been scoffed at by higher critics:

The Cyrus Cylinder, discovered in 1879, records Cyrus' overthrow of Babylon and his subsequent deliverance of the Jewish captives.

The Rosetta Stone, discovered in 1799 in Egypt by Napoleon's scientists, was written in three languages: hieroglyphics, demotic, and Greek. It unlocked the mystery of the hieroglyphics which have helped confirm the authenticity of the Bible.

The Moabite Stone discovered in 1868 at Dibon, Jordan, confirmed Moabite attacks on Israel as recorded in 2 Kings 1 and 3.

The Lachish Letters, discovered in 1932-1938, 24 miles north of Beersheba, described the attack of Nebuchadnezzar on Jerusalem in 586 BC.

Archeological Excavations

The Bible's authenticity is also evidenced by archeological excavations that prove the existence of names of people and cities found in the Bible. The discovery of the city of Petra, for example, helped confirm the authenticity of the Bible's record.

In addition, many of the Bible's prophecies have already come true. Prophecies concerning Babylon (Isaiah 13:19-22), Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3-5), Sidon (Ezekiel 28:21-23), Cyrus (Ezra 4:3; 5:13-14; Isaiah 44:28; 45:1), Medo Persia (Daniel 8:20-21), Greece (Daniel 8:20-21), and Jesus' birthplace Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) have all been fulfilled exactly as predicted. These fulfilled prophecies are an extremely strong argument for the trustworthiness of the Bible. They signify that we can trust the prophecies concerning the Antichrist and other end- time prophecies.

Unity of Scripture

Another evidence of the Bible's inspiration is found in its cohesive unity. In more than 3000 places, the Bible declares itself inspired. It does not contradict itself.

The prophecies of the Bible in cases such as Babylon, Tyre, Petra, and Egypt, as well as the Messianic prophecies, prove the Bible's authenticity.

The Moabite Stone Enlarge picture The Bible has survived centuries and even millenia. Despite all the attempts of Satan to hide it, destroy it, and make it inaccessible to the common person, the Bible has been preserved by God.

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever" (Psalm 12:6-7). Jesus also promises that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matthew 24:35).

But what does the Bible have to say about its inspiration? From where does it say it gets its revelation?

2 Peter 1:21 says, "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

In fact, the Bible states emphatically that, "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).

When this was written, it was primarily referring to the Old Testament. Those that say that the Old Testament, or the Gospels, or other parts of the Bible are no longer applicable to us, are incorrect. The entire Bible exists for our edification. The Scriptures point to Jesus and His solution for our sin problem.

From Genesis to Revelation, Jesus is revealed in His various forms. In the Pentateuch (the first five books), Jesus is revealed. In Genesis, Christ is our Creator. In Exodus, Christ is our Sanctuary, our Haven, and our Deliverer. In Leviticus, Christ is our Sacrifice and Judge. In Numbers, Christ is our Guide. And in Deuteronomy, Christ is revealed as our Reward. In the books of Revelation and Daniel, we see Christ as our Judge. And we find these aspects of Christ revealed throughout the Bible.

Psalm 119:160 says, "Thy word is true from the beginning."

In John 17:17 we read, "thy word is truth."

The greatest evidence of the Bible's inspiration is evidenced in the Christ it reveals and the changes in those who study it (John 5:39; Acts 4:12; Matthew 11:26-28).

Tyre and the Bible

A Biblical prophecy accurately foretold the history of the ancient city of Tyre.

Petra and the Bible

The ancient city of Petra was virtually unknown to archaeologists, with only the Bible to give account of its existence. But 200 years ago all of that changed when one man made a legendary discovery.

Egypt and the Bible

Are the Bible's stories about Egypt simply mythology as critics suggest, or is there proof in Egypt's own ancient writings?

Babylon and the Bible

Babylon was excavated in 1898. The archaeological findings point to the truth of Scripture's prophecies about that great city. Updated November 2009.

Taken from: http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_archaeology_Bible_Cyrus